Also, I'm sure everyone who plays LoL can remember more than a few instances where either you or your opponent gets away with just a sliver of life left. Someone with a superior rune book would consistently get the better of those encounters.

Again, I'm not faulting LoL (too much) for its decision to obtain champions and runes this way, I do understand it's a microtransaction game, I just have issue with microtransaction games in general.

Well if you're looking for a game with none of these things HoN and DotA are just like that.

Point is, this person chose that edge, where as you could choose a different edge. Or if you think health stacking is the best advantage than you can go that way. I don't see how this is problematic.

You're assuming they're both equal level and have the opportunity to get the same number of runestones.

Customization is fine. Having one person able to customize and add all these skills and one person unable to isn't fine.

If you're getting matched up against people of equal skill and level, you've both had the same opportunity to make choices as far as runes and masteries go.

None of you play HoN or DotA. From what I know of them, they seem like they'd be too micro-managy for me. I also don't want to be constantly yelled at while I learn the game.



I don't have problems with different approaches to the rune book, I actually like that aspect to the game, I was pointing out the advantage someone would have by simply having more runes in his/her runebook.

It's not possible to have that always work that way.

Either A: you wait eons because it forces the system to wait until it finds 10 players that are all exactly the same level, or

B: It finds a "sorta fair" matchup where the average level is the same for both teams, but then you end up being the low end guy in the game and the high end guys on the other team lane with you/pick on you and you get owned and cool fair.

Either way whether there is a big difference between the runestones or not is irrelevant - if there isn't a big difference, then just unlock it for everyone. It doesn't make sense not to. If there is a big difference, then it's just a fun way for the higher levels to feel cool stomping on people that don't have a fair chance.

You're right. I'll play WoW again if they take the same approach you are. Free gear, free levels... wait that would make the game boring.

That's the way I see it, WoW is/was fun because of the leveling and the not so brutal gear grinds. Lamyra's comparison to smash brothers also holds. This makes the game more interesting and keeps you coming back to it.

And its true, in theory the system works- in reality you will sometimes get matched up unfairly.

Right, but after a certain point you should be on equal footing. This reminds me of WoW and arenas. I've played this system before and I liked it. Its a challenge and there's a certain glee you get when you win knowing you don't have the upper hand.

Also, I remember it taking me up to, if not more than 2-3 months to get a character decently geared for arena and more time getting them at a good competitive level. I see no real difference.

You've tried this argument but it never holds water. WoW is an MMO, it's just entirely different.

I played Counter-Strike for 10 years. I STILL play it, played 10 scrims yesterday in fact! There is no leveling, there is nothing. More people play CS/CS Source than just about every other competitive FPS (on PC) combined. It's just a competitive game. You don't need to gain levels to enjoy playing a competitive game to see if you're better than someone, to improve your skill, etc.

Same goes for DotA. Still playing it. Been playing these games since the old school shit that was a 3 way DotA type game. I don't gain levels, but it's always fun.

You're essentially claiming you will stop playing LoL once you hit the max level, which supposedly isn't hard. That doesn't make sense and you know it isn't true. You don't have a desire to play because you can't wait to get another rune, you're playing because it's fun to play a competitive game with friends.

And in that way, LoL succeeds and is fun. It just really bothers me that they're tossing in the dumb leveling aspect.

I never said I agreed with the system of giving advantages in a competitive game. I said it wasn't a big deal because when it only takes a week to get to end game it ISN'T a big deal.

Now, however, with levels taking longer AND needing to gain influence points to get a single rune, that period of not being on equal level is going to be much larger. So again, it's not my viewpoint changing but the game. Maybe if you actually played the game you'd understand this though. Get mad.

The difference is WoW is an MMO. There is ENORMOUSLY more to do in a game like WoW than there is in LoL. WoW also charges a monthly fee so they have every incentive to try to convince you to spend as much time as they can make you spend getting the things you want. It just doesn't compare.

And when WoW did a REAL competitive arena event, what happened? Everyone is given identical choices of different gear and options to outfit their characters as they please, creating a completely even playing field. Just as LoL should be, since that's the only aspect the game has.

Aaron, deep down I love you. Actually, not even deep down. Right here on my chest? This heart? It's beating for you.

Let's just agree that we both agree here, and we're both super cool. And I don't need to play a game consistently to understand the simple fact that advantages are given to players that are higher level than others. We all know this. The game is identical to DotA except with that stuff tossed in, so I'll stick to the fair game for now.

Its different because you say it is, but it holds similar elements. Also how am I making that claim? I had every set of gear possible on Beanhealer and still played because the game was fun.

I think the game adds something fun and interesting and allows you to play heroes in different ways with the runes and masteries. Overall its ok. Someone with mad cash is going to drop 300 dollars and just up and buy everything I bet, it won't bother me when I'm beating them with my limited runes and masteries.

After you get the max level its basically a countdown to when you'll get tired of the game. Just. Like. WoW.

OR

You can make another account and make 3 other rune book pages and play the game differently than you have been before.

Runes are kind of like gear
Masteries are just like talent points

REALLY.

That's a strange thing to find in a game with a leveling system.

So weird.

So very odd.

So as we established in the last thread (because this is just a repeat) it comes down to two polarized sides that this game design choice has created:

Those of us that want a competitive game to be fair from the get go
Those of us that want a competitive game to get a little more interesting by adding some levels and things to keep a person playing

That's all this argument really comes down to. Obviously a few of us in here are in group A, and a few are in group B.

Leveling up should not be used as a gimmick to keep people coming back to the game. And even if you wanted a gimmick, achievements or stat tracking are much better ways of doing that.

A competitive game's replay value should be based entirely on how fun it is to play. I like the rune book and mastery aspects of LoL, but there's no reason they can't just be given to you from the start.

RPGs are completely different because in that genre it is implied that you will somehow get better over time (either in levels, skills, or equipment).

That said though, even WoW put people on the exact same playing field in their arena leagues because they knew it was stupid to have people's arena games depend AT ALL on gear and "time played." Hence why in their official arena server everyone has access to the exact same things.

A leveling system that shouldn't be there.

you have aids,

owned

Yet way more pointless.



That's not the case in LoL?



Live servers =/= tournament servers. Just like in WoW, just like in LoL.

I have to say, I'm with rogue, fries, and moo on this one.

My thoughts. It's a microtransaction game, and they need to make money somehow. Buying heroes is a fine way to do that. Most of us have already pre-ordered the game, which, imo, would entitle us to a few more riot points than the non-purchasers.

Extra skins, unlockable characters, etc, all fit well within the mold of influence points spending stuff.

You play a couple games, unlock some stuff, awesome.

To use Sippy's Smash Bros analogy, I didn't feel disadvantaged because I didn't yet have Wolf unlocked, but another guy was playing him.

That said, I WOULD be pissed, if the other guys all had more HP or Damage capabilities simply because they've played longer and have more runes.

That's where I take issue: the runebook slots being based on level. It will ultimately depend on how long it takes to get to max level to see how much it bothers me. If it's another 30-50 games, I'll suck it up. If it's 400 games, that'll be REALLY annoying.

But overall, I'm opposed to giving competitive non-skill-based advantages to others simply for them having been playing longer, at least within the context of a serious competitive game.

Frankly, I like nick's sports analogies - I think they apply to this very well.